Personally, I'm not a hardcore competitive player for two reasons:
- because I don't have the time or money to compete with the better competitive players out there.
- because I'm too anti-copycat to run with a xeroxed netlist. Admittedly, I might incorporate elements from one... but something would have to make it "mine."
But I do appreciate hardcore gamers and what they bring to the table. Back in the day, when I considered myself a competitive Magic: The Gathering player, I still had the "make it mine" tendency, and that almost always resulted in me running decks that were less than optimal. However... I took the time to play against opponents who did run optimal decks, and who were better players than me in general, so that when tournament time came I would have the best chance of winning given my self-imposed restrictions. Was it irritating to lose to netdecks? Of course it was! But I valued the netdecks and the guys who played the netdecks because they helped me improve my skills.
I think we need to redefine what WAAC really means. "All costs" implies that anything is acceptable as long as it results in a win. Are the penalties of cheating a potential cost? Why, yes they are. Thus, if you're willing to win at all costs, you're also willing to cheat... and therein lies the difference between min/max players and WAAC players. Min/max players are not necessarily willing to cheat to win. Some people see optimizing an army list as cheating. But is it cheating to pick the most powerful and cost effective units? I think not. Unfortunately, many (if not most) cheaters look like your run of the mill min/max players until you catch them in the act... thus the confusion.
Perhaps the pure min/max players, who will milk every advantage from their chosen codex but keep the moral high ground at the table, need a new acronym to differentiate them from the true WAAC players. I suggest WAACWASN. What does it stand for? Simple! Win At All Costs Within Acceptable Social Norms! Yes, it's a mouthful, but is isn't that much more difficult to wrap your tongue around than WYSIWYG, right?
To the whiners:
True min/max players, WAACWASN players if you will, don't need to cheat. If your tactics suck, your knowledge of the game is sub-par, and you picked units because they looked pretty, a min/max player will table you and stay entirely within the game rules. Tell your friends whatever makes you feel better, but if you can't beat the leafblower with your same old units and same old tactics, maybe "same old" needs to adapt to the new trends... or you could at least quit complaining about it.
And if you find that he is a cheat, then you've discovered one of two things: either he isn't a true min/max player, or you're competent enough to be a credible challenge to a min/max player. In the first case, he wasn't a true min/max player at all, so you shouldn't lump him in with the min/max guys anymore. In the second case, you should feel good about yourself. In either case, you should kick him in the balls and never play him again.
Okay, okay... kicking him in the balls is taking things a little too far... but you get the point.

Personally, I always built MtG decks that were fun and fast to play. I totally ignored tournament legalities, because we basically only played amongst ourselves at our favorite coffee shop. I quit playing MtG because of the never ending stream of feeling like I had to buy the most recent set of cards.
ReplyDeleteAs far as WH and WH40k, I'm only just getting started, but it seems to me that you can remain tournament legal even with "old" models (unlike MtG changing what cards are legal and which old ones aren't anymore). I'm pretty much the casual player and typically avoid the WAAC type players (mainly because they're usually douchebags). Just my $0.02.
Thanks for sharing. I completely understand your sentiments about MtG's card overflow... I stopped keeping up while my late wife was in the hospital and I haven't felt like shelling out the money to get caught back up!
ReplyDeleteThere's no need to keep up with with new sets if you just play with friends in a local coffee shop. For a long time, I just played on kitchen tables and had a blast. When I did transition to the tournament scene, I just got tired of people whining about how the deck that beat all their friends at home wasn't winning in tournaments... but the level of competition is much higher and the competitive aspect is what becomes the most fun.
When you say WAAC, do you mean people who build decks/armies with winning as many games as possible in mind? Or do you mean people who are willing to cheat to win? I've found that many people who build for fluff or build for aesthetics consider competitive players to be douchebags because they have trouble beating them, not necessarily because of their behavior.
Granted, I've also seen some competitive players treat less tactically minded players like crap too... but just being competitive doesn't necessarily mean I'm a douche. You can't practice with amateurs and immediately compete with professionals in anything unless you're blessed with an unusual amount of raw talent. That doesn't make the professionals bad people... it just means that the amateur needs to work harder or accept his position as underdog.
In 40K, it isn't always true that old models will stay tournament legal, but things last MUCH longer than in MtG. Necrons, for example, haven't changed at all since 2002. When a new codex is released, the units themselves generally stay the same, but the costs of each unit and upgrade are likely to change... so you probably won't have to buy new models, but you might have to switch some things around to meet a certain point limit.
To answer your question, the win at all cost guys where I live tend to be "casual" players but do insist on decks being 100% tourney legal. They also have a tendency to be very poor losers and very ungracious winners. It's about the time that one of my friends that I enjoyed casual coffee shop games with started hanging with those guys that I gave up on MtG.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you though. Just because I can't beat someone doesn't make them a d-bag. It's their behavior (i.e., unsportman-like conduct or cheating) that makes them such. Thankfully, I've never really ever dealt with an outright cheater, although I have had minor rules interpretations disagreements.
Thanks for the clarification on 40k. That's basically what I was getting at though. While the codex may require tweaking your models a bit, you don't necessarily have to run out a drop more cash on new ones like you would have to w/CCGs.